CHAPTER 1
METAPROGRAMS.
MOTIVATION TOWARDS & FROM
Hello, everyone. And again this is NLP radio on stream. Today
in our studio we are having our usual guest – a famous NLP trainer
in Russia, a professional negotiator, Alexander Gerasimov. Hello,
Alexander.
Hello, Olga.
Dear listeners, we have learned a lot by American materials
of Richard Bandler and John Grinder. We have learned and read
lots of books, and now we have prepared something to introduce
you, some products you are going to be interested in. Now
we will treat you with something. And the topic discussed
today is metaprograms. The first question: what actually
are “metaprograms”?
Metaprograms are – so to speak – person’s habitual ways of thinking, of making a choice, of making a decision. It is what we have had for ages and what is integrated into us rather seriously.
For example. All of us have a certain number of metaprograms. And we can choose how many programs we should have independently.
For example, we have a metaprogram of motivation. It is what we will be talking about today. And a person habitually picks either motivation of striving for something, or motivation of avoiding something. In the form of a metaphor, we can imagine a selector between diametrically-opposed positions – “either… or.” For example, a person having a metaprogram of avoiding will be afraid of literally everything. And there is a person having a metaprogram of striving.
As a diametrically-opposed example, for better explanation. A person, who is striving for something… in spite of everything… ‘I see my target…’ ‘I believe in myself…’ ‘I ignore obstacles…’. Normally, ordinary people are somewhere between these positions, inclined to a certain metaprogram. And there can be a large amount of such
habits, metaprograms. I can add a couple of such dichotomies.
I’ve heard about the book describing 51 metaprograms in NLP…
by Michael Hall… but I would say that every tool… including for negotiations, and for self-improvement… the transformation of quantity into quality occurs but not always… sometimes, the quantity is so extensive and large that it is not easy to fetch. For example, there is a classification of people comprising 8 personality types, and just imagine a classification comprising 1,000 personality types.
When you learn this classification, you won’t want to learn any other classifications. …And there is an optimal amount of metaprograms.
For example, about 10 or 15. I believe that there are 51 metaprograms, but I don’t believe that it would be a rather rational tool.
Do we count them in pairs? Do we count number of pairs
or all together?
Pairs.
In the beginning I wanted to ask this question at the end of our
conversation, but logically it is going to be put right here. How
are they actually formed and under which circumstances are they
formed? And what actually influences their formation?
All of us are products of our childhood. Those are formed including based on our experience, our family education, our personal experience… interaction with other people… and on what kind of books a person read in their childhood… on in what kind of family a person was brought up… Of course, metaprograms are partially influenced by a physiological component… I mean, there are people – so to speak
– actually slow… naturally… for example, they have such nervous system… slow reaction time… I will name three main metaprogram forming factors. Number One – is physiology, human physiology.
It is an individual characteristic. We are very different. We have different characters. It was the first factor. Number Two – is conditions in which children are raised in their family. It refers to parents, scenarios, nutrition, and parenting style… Number Three – is social interaction.
For example, it not necessarily refers to some people, neighbors, or friends… or schoolmates…. It can refer to books, which we choose
to read consciously… So we have three substantial levels. And a combination of those… Well, an earlier level affects a later level, and forms the personality of a person. It doesn’t mean that a person will be… for example, if it is an “avoiding,” or, for example, a “reflexive”
person, you won’t be able to help it… It is possible to adjust, to correct…
and then it’s the matter of resources you are willing to invest. And it is possible to reformate them, providing that those were formatted.
Okay. I remember: in one of your performances, in one of your
interviews you said that imprints, imprinted experience, play
a role. Do they?
Yes. I just haven’t named this word, and these childhood experiences, obtained in childhood when our mental health is the most vulnerable, can be called imprints. …Depending on imprints, including parenting style… For example, a child constantly being hurried by his or her parents… or, on the contrary, a baby to whom everyone around, parents, credible people say, ‘Don’t hurry.’ ‘Weigh everything!’ ‘Check whether you’ve taken it,’ ‘Recheck!’ And an initially high-energy child gradually begins to move slower. Sometimes that child is told to stop doing something, sometimes – scolded, sometimes – praised. And eventually it gets formed. I mean, it has influence. Maybe it is not a key element, and maybe it is impossible to distinguish a key element, but it surely is a component having a certain share of influence.
Right. Okay. Let’s talk detailedly about each aspect of motivation.
Motivation towards and motivation from. Which are pluses and
minuses of each in our life?
This is not to say that FROM motivation is bad, and TOWARDS
motivation is good. It is the matter of applicability. There is a range of peculiarities, or – so to speak – personality traits. A person having rather FROM motivation is more cautious, attentive… such person avoids… and doesn’t want something to be… something to happen…
Normally, those people are more observant. And more sensitive. Unlike TOWARDS motivation, where a person is rather result-oriented, and, like they say, an arrow heading towards a target is not distracted by the landscape. …So, a person having TOWARDS motivation may
be insensitive to other people and to their reaction. This is not always the case. There’s a certain correlation. For example… I would… apply it… I mean positive or negative… if I meet a person rather having FROM motivation… I would try to match that person’s motivation, and would talk to a greater extent about problems we should avoid…
We would figure out them together. Or, for example, a goal-oriented person. It is easier to involve such person into something, it is easier to offer some prospects, goals, plans to such person, and he or she will immediately start doing something… to achieve a certain goal.
Pure FROM motivation or TOWARDS motivation… not that it is difficult to encounter… such people are just rarer. More frequently, it is about balance, about proportions. For example, a person may have 70%
of FROM motivation and 30% of TOWARDS motivation. It’s rather the question of how it shows itself, how to estimate it in natural environment, because… if we were carrying out some tests, and if a person knew about such tests, he or she could intentionally influence…
This is exactly what I wanted to specify. It is definitely in the
context. So probably to illustrate somehow? How do we specify it?
First of all, it is the context of interaction with other people. For example, in business it may be personnel recruiting. And a certain job vacation…
a certain occupation… very often TOWARDS motivation or FROM
motivation has an effect… For example, a doctor. … A doctor – is it TOWARDS motivation or FROM motivation?
If it is a dentist, as a doctor. Earlier it was FROM motivation. A patient should not have toothache. In recent years, maybe in recent decades, medicine – dentistry – becomes more aesthetical, and it is rather TOWARDS. You might notice that… earlier we associated visiting a dentist with suffering… nowadays, marketing experts promote dentistry as – it is non-painful – it’s like we speaking the language of a FROM-motivation person, and we say, ‘It is non-painful’ …and a beautiful smile… it comprises two motivations – of those avoiding pain, and of those willing to look nice – at once.
And we can define a person’s motivation by their wording.
Or, for example, risk management. …Risk assessment at a company.
You can hardly imagine a risk manager, who will be striving for something… They will rather be modeling problems and resolve those in their mind. A company’s Chief Security Officer. …It is also rather FROM motivation – ‘Nothing should happen’ – than TOWARDS
motivation – ‘Let us hire more people.’ And occupation in personnel recruiting is probably the main context of metaprograms application.
And, basically, in any communication, it may be the context of attitude, the context of sales, the context of consulting and therapy, and the context of self-development – to understand yourself – you also should be able to distinguish metaprograms. Metaprograms
– in general, and FROM motivation – in particular.
Yes. It is a peculiarity that should be taken into consideration when distinguishing metaprograms. If we inform a person in advance about an upcoming testing, most likely he or she will get prepared to it psychologically. So, figuring out – not only FROM or TOWARDS
metaprograms – it should be as close as possible to the context, and the most naturally… In the ideal case, it is just observing a person in natural environment… Like some companies do… they have installed CCTV cameras in their waiting room, and they observe a person before that person comes for testing… it also has an effect…
Let’s move on to basic emotions of people with these or those
characteristics. What are basic emotions? I can guess that maybe
with motivation “to“ people have got anger or maybe interest.
Am I right or some other emotions?
Yes, yes.
And with ‘‘motivation“ from – not only fear, but I believe also
boredom. Am I right?
If we take boredom as an emotion, it consists of two emotions: it is some kind of a cocktail – the emotion of disgust, and the emotion of sadness …if we combine these two chemical elements we will get a third one – named ‘boredom.’ …And disgust is exactly FROM
motivation, avoiding. Of course, there is fear – when disgust gets to the active phase. …Well, boredom – it is exactly when there is something
unpleasant, and you don’t want it to be, but a person is not always active, and has energy to move away from such boredom, from such disgust.
Okay. How to identify? How to personify? How do we grope for
it in a person? Are there any tests? Maybe calibration, whatever?
From my point of view, the most reliable way is observing a person.
Because when we invade their privacy, we immediately start influencing them… moreover, if we tell a person, ‘We will be testing you right now.’
Like an HR manager recruiting personnel says, “Please, sell me this pen or this calculator.’ …And such person stops being his or her true self.
It creates some filters. So, when we just place a person into a specific context, some stress, preferably… or a person is in some space, and we observe them… then – first – we are able to detect their leaning direction, the posture… a person having TOWARDS motivation will most likely be leaning forward… and looking forward, at the front of them… a person having FROM motivation will either look tight, or will be leaning aside or backward… Emotion, as we’ve already said… Anger and interest refer to TOWARDS motivation, while fear, sadness, and disgust refer to FROM motivation… Gestures. Thrusting away, or moving aside gestures correspond to FROM motivation, while decisive, chopping, forward-directed gestures correspond to TOWARDS motivation…
We can even… Well, where is no direct correlation… but we can distinguish even judging by clothing… or by a person’s attitude toward a situation, toward clothing… People inclined to avoid – having FROM
motivation – they wear clothes of darker colors, less clean-cut and contrast outfit… People having TOWARDS motivation – they wear rather something more bright-colored… It is not to say that if a girl wears a bright color blouse she has TOWARDS motivation. We can just collect more information. The main thing is to a greater extent how a person speaks, provided that that person feels maximum natural and relaxed. A person having TOWARDS motivation will be saying words such as ‘to achieve,’ ‘to obtain,’ ‘a goal,’ ‘possession,’ ‘forward,’
‘to move.’ While a person having TOWARDS motivation will use any words and verbs, such as ‘to avoid,’ ‘to take into account’.
‘If only that didn’t happen, didn’t occur,’ ‘if only we weren’t late,’
these include non-, dis-, -less, and other prefixes and suffixes used by a person… or even words such as, for example, dangerless… they are indicators of FROM motivation… Or the word ‘disgust,’ for example, refers to FROM motivation.
Okay. Now how can we use this information efficiently for our
life?
The very first method… I suggest that we should start practicing, doing exercises related to this topic, I mean matching a person…
matching their perceptual filters… as programs are filters through which we are looking at the world… if the word “avoiding” is written on a person’s filter, it is most likely the world full of hazards… if you start talking about achievements, overcoming, the wish to obtain, and goals being next to such person, he or she won’t start moving before having taken all potential hazards into account… If you have figured out that a person has FROM program, for example, with an 80 to 20 ratio, I suggest that you should fill your speech – written or oral
– with FROM motivation. It will be matching the deepest… habitual ways of thinking,… the deepest levels, habitual ways of thinking…
it is matching at the level of person’s character… naturally, if you and another person have similar character traits, …that person will most likely prefer to communicate with you. It is an example of how you can use this information.
To persuade him somehow, right?
Yes, we can tell a person about a project, putting emphasis exactly on taking hazards into account. ‘We have got that covered, we have taken it into consideration, we have resolved that, we will plan it in more detail.’ And that person will feel more comfortable in our presence.
And he or she will pick us, if it refers to a business proposal.
We can also use it, for example, for the purpose of self-therapy and diagnostics. You surely understand that the most critical thing in our life is balance. Not to tilt toward a specific metaprogram, but exactly to choose… depending on the context we are currently in.
If it is, for example, the context of health, it would be logically… well, the idea of health is rather the idea of avoiding problems, of preventing
diseases. Because… for example the World Health Organization doesn’t have a definition of a healthy person. Everything is defined through the absence: there is no specific disease, there are no specific symptoms. …So, in order to find a healthy person… Without knowing how to do it. They haven’t set a goal, so they don’t reach it, probably.
In order to understand… whether or not you have balance, whether or not you can be adequate in this context. It is also important. It is critical to know, it is critical to understand ourselves.
Yes. So, when we know ourselves, it means that we can change
ourselves. Right? So, very logical. Because when we don’t realize
something, it guides us, as you always say. We are in the power
of what we cannot realize. So, once we realize it, we can change
it. I believe. Even metaprograms can be changed.
To be more precise, it is not about changing, but rather about shaking them up. And balancing. If a person has only FROM, and has no TOWARDS programs, we can gently move – while practicing
– toward TOWARDS. To intentionally outline goals. To implement the WFO technique we’ve practiced. Actually, the WFO technique partially addresses metaprograms. For example, Step Number One – setting a goal – corresponds to TOWARDS motivation. While Ecology – Step Number Five – corresponds to FROM motivation. And we should put emphasis exactly on what we really want. In order to balance out…
Working with fears also I believe.
Accounting fears.
Work with our fears in order to change this metaprogram.
In psychotherapy? Right?
Yes.
So, using all those tools and instruments, it would be a great
idea for a business owner or a company manager who keeps
a few employees to manage those employees knowing their
metaprograms. Right? Have you ever practiced that? What is your
experience with that?
Yes… I consider this information – about metaprograms – to be very
important, very important for distinguishing the type of personality.
First of all, if you have for a long time been with a person, for example, in a working context, you can understand what kind of person he or she is based on their combination of metaprograms. Let us pretend that you have a list of occupations and job positions available at your company, including corresponding metaprograms. For example, FROM and TOWARDS. …And you know, that Accountant rather refers to FROM, Sales Representative rather refers to TOWARDS, Office-Cleaner – let it be FROM, and, for example, Chief Commercial Officer refers to both FROM and TOWARDS. And during personnel recruiting, or while interacting with already existing employees, you can understand how much a person matches his or her job.
Because some people, in spite of their character traits, tear themselves literally apart… While personnel reshuffle could be enough… to let people do their own thing… for example, if a person likes accounting risks, but is delegated to achieve a breakthrough, to move ahead, such person feels pretty uncomfortable. So, let us pretend that you have compiled a list of metaprograms – Occupations, which…
available Job Positions… And you analyze people. And you will realize at once how comfortable a person feels while performing a certain job. As an example.
Yes. It is a great tool in NLP. Alexander, I think that you have
awoken interest to other metaprograms. Now we have understood,
how useful it is, what great a tool it is.
Thank you, Alexander.
Thank you, Olga. I also would like to ask our listeners to tell us in their comments about their metaprogram ratio, and which program prevails… Within the 1-100% range. It could it an 80% of TOWARDS
to 20% of FROM ratio, or vice versa… 30% of TOWARDS
to 70% of FROM… or 100% of TOWARDS… How do you think, what kind of person are you? And using which parameters can you define it?
I’m sure while you were listening to this podcast you already got
it in yourself. So, please write. Bye!
CHAPTER 2
METAPROGRAMS.
ACTIVE VS REFLECTIVE
Hello, everyone! And again this is NLP radio on stream. Today
in our studio we are having our usual guest – a famous NLP trainer
in Russia, a professional negotiator, Alexander Gerasimov. Hello,
Alexander. Thanks for being with us.
Hello, Olga. Hello, everybody.
Today we continue talking about metaprograms. Last time
we discussed motivation “to” and “from” and today we continue
talking it over. We will highlight reflective and active types of people.
Would you introduce it, Alexander, what is this?
Those are our certain character traits. As you know, there are people who cannot sit idle, they are super-active, proactive, and so on… who first do something and then think about it… and there are people, who first think… Measure Twice, Cut Once… there is such proverb…
meaning that such people first weigh everything, calculate everything, and only then… slowly but steadily… they commence, for example, achieving a goal…
We didn’t know, that that was called metaprograms. Okay.
So, how do we identify it in people actually? We are watching
them. We observe them, of course. But are there any tests
to understand it?
Unlike the FROM/TOWARDS metaprogram we discussed in our previous podcast… everything is a little bit simpler in this case… more noticeable… A person having ACTIVE metaprogram literally cannot sit idle… Such person starts talking even before you have finished… they can easily interrupt you when you speak… for example… such person types messages faster… for example, you have just sent a message to such person, and they have immediately replied… such person… as soon as a decision is made… jumps up and starts implementing it… or
even starts doing something before a final decision is made… I often see this picture at trainings, when I explain an exercise… there are people, who immediately jump up and commence doing it… and there are reflective people… it is critical to them to ask all questions, to take everything possible into consideration… to think, to look around, to weigh everything… sometimes to note down… to take into account some other nuances… to ask questions once again… and keep sitting, contemplating… philosophizing… Not that it’s critical to them to avoid doing something… they also do… but they need certain preparation… when they do something, they do it one step at a time.
Okay. Very interesting to find out. What makes people such? What
kind of circumstances make us active or reflective? What should
happen in childhood, that a child grows up reflective or active?
In this case, in early childhood… the parenting style plays a significant role… Basically, all children are rather active… You can see that, for example, observing children playing outdoors at a kindergarten…
where they permanently moving somewhere, doing something…
But you surely can imagine how a kid is gradually growing up… and he or she is told, “Where are you constantly hasting to?”, “Why are you always grasping everything?”, “Sit, and think it over!”, “Calculate!”…
and it gradually gets integrated… and if a family is, for example, accustomed to slow heart-to-heart talks… some philosophical speculations… or – parents’ occupations are not related to physical activities… subsequently, such person starts slowing down… realizing that thinking is more beneficial… Besides, it often happens that a person… their pro-activeness is to their detriment… for example, a person makes a decision unthinkingly… for example, with regard to investments… if we are talking about adults… runs somewhere, writes something, or says something… and then gets punished for that… and gets feedback as follows, “If you were not in so much of a hurry, and if you had calculated and weighed everything, that wouldn’t happen!” … And later, in a similar situation, – it really is an imprint, – … in a similar situation, such person asks him- or herself, “Why am I in a hurry?”… and comes to a conclusion, ‘I’d
better take everything into consideration, I’d better listen to experts’
opinion, I’d better think about potential results,’ … and gradually such person begins to slow down… but it is also critical to keep in mind that basically… the context matters.. because, for example, a person may be rather active while communicating with their friends, and reflective, for example, at work, dealing with customers…
It is surprising what you have said, because I thought that
physiology was very strong. I thought, that physiology was
stronger than upbringing of parents. And I actually thought, that
it was impossible to slow down human nature.
Yes, sure. Parents feel comfortable then their child has the same rhythm of life as they do. But not all parents are able to slow down a person… to slow down their child… to their level.
I’d like to add that… Yes, indeed. We understand that our environment has a strong influence on us… for example… a person leaves the country and moves to a noisy and quick city… it is an external factor… and then a person has to make a difficult choice… either to adapt to the crazy rhythm of the city, or… having failed… to get back… well, surely there are some optimal, intermediate variants… something else…
it is an extreme example… I notice, based on my own experience…
I travel a lot… when I – with my already integrated pro-activeness – arrive in a small town, and begin to list something off pretty rapidly, to talk about something, I feel… and see – judging by people’s reaction – that I’d better pause between words… or slow down sometimes… or ask them if everything is clear to them… for example… and I understand that if I stay at that town… for example, for a week… I will slow down…
and I will then need to adapt to the rhythm of the city when I am back to Moscow… so, circumstances do have effect… So, the older we get, the more flexible we are… and the easier we can adapt…
while you have to make rather serious efforts to calm down a kid, and parents sometimes fail to do it… an older person has a more conscious attitude… and understands that… well, let us ask those driving a car a question – imagine a traffic flow moving at a certain pace… it doesn’t matter, 40 km/h, or 20 km/h… if it is a traffic jam… or 90 km/h, out in the country… so, at what speed should you drive your
car? The answer is – at the speed of the traffic flow. And there is no…
if you drive faster, there are certain requirements for your driving…
if you drive slower… you will hear horns sounding, and other drivers will be cutting in front of you… it may happen…
Okay. These metaprograms, active and reflective,… how else can
we call it? How can we paraphrase it? What are these: not filters,
but characteristics? What are they?
Well, those are partially perceptual filters, too. Because, when we are delivered information, we perceive things. Another example related to driving. For example, there is a person, who is driving at the maximum speed of 40 km/h. For example, and old man. So, it is his perceptual filter. He is processing information at this speed.